Prophet Land and Prophetic Mandate--
Levels Of Integrity, Truthfulness, and Responsibility,and later on
Rick Joyner In Charisma page.
I have received mail from ex-Joyner fans all along. Some were just disappointed in him, and others told more disturbing reports. One frantic parent got the following answer from a young woman who was an avid attender of his "School of The Spirit", and who supposedly was close enough to Joyner to eat dinner with him on occasion: "You simply weren't on a high enough spiritual plain to understand things like Rick does."
There were some who were in open fear regarding the masons and freemasons, and what might happen to them should they speak up. A few people asked me if I feared for my life. Some mail came from obvious Joyner fans, who issued 'prophetic' threats and warnings. Eric Weiss has also helped me address some of these people, and the European Prophetic College has always been very supportive.
I have also received private mail from people who had approached Joyner directly or indirectly. Not once did I receive a good report of his reaction to them, whether it be stonewalling (the most common complaint) or whatever answer he gave. It is easy to take these many reports of stonewalling seriously, since this is essentially what Rick himself did to Bob and I and the European Prophetic College. This has not been a surprise at all, but it well worth noting and we believe it speaks volumes enough.
Some people were fearful regarding their public ministry and were worried someone might think they were involved, or that their true opinions might be revealed. These included private mail from those who held some high regard for either Bob Jones or Rick Joyner.
As time went on, mail to me over this issue became more and more supportive.
See the examples of our mail.
For a description from someone else who received
similar mail after a brief article they produced in their ministry, see
our shortened reproduction of Slouching
Toward Avalon by Bryan Huppert, sent to us by Bryan. Followed this
is his own description of the mail he received afterwards, as well as links
to another follow-up article.
Now to what can be reproduced in our letters to and from the author,
regarding the articles,
Trouble in Prophet Land , Prophetic Mandate-- Levels Of Integrity, Truthfulness, and Responsibility,
and later on our
Rick Joyner In Charisma page :
To one person who questioned my motives, I wrote the following:
I hope I am not prejudged to have other motives than the best ones you can think of, that I should be questioned on them. Usually when that happens, I find that the other person holds to the idea and belief that all such things are wrong, and so there can be no motive that is decent. Therefore, the motive must be an ill one. Surely the things in the heart must be bad, if they are doing such a bad thing.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is probably best that I myself not be a teacher on this subject, toward you. You probably suspect that I have some growing to do, that I don't really know what I am doing, and that you are here to help me. You've as much as said that. This does not bother me, as it does not perturb my ego. If I were in your position, having been exposed to the teachings and readings and writings you probably have, I might think the same thing of myself. It's just that I know my limits in such a case, as far as teaching you or convincing you of the appropriateness or inappropriateness of such an action.
So, I will refer you to the study of scripture, and maybe other works by other people on my website about telling the truth. You might also contact Art Katz. Ask him to judge. You do respect him, as Eric Weiss noted to me. He might be an appropriate person to talk to about all of this. Some of his work would support the thought that this is not a bad thing.
(this mail posted with permission)
Dear Teri, I'm interested to see what happens with the article in Charisma and with the call to Joyner and the prophetic movement to be accountable to the body of Christ in general. It's easy to say you are accountable when you are a part of a hand-picked circle of cronies.Many ministries have their relatives and friends on their accountability circle,or worse those who stand to benefit from an arrangement that effects everyone in the groups ability to be profitable in their business of merchandizing books ,tapes and other christian products and high dollar seminars and conferences.
I hope these men have more integrity than to be motivated by the financial,and personal ego defense in regard to being accountable.It is important that the prophetic movement and big name ministers humble themselves and admit that they "missed it" when things they prophesy don't come to pass as "foretold".As you mentioned in your article this is especially important when they have claims of "higher levels" of inspiration or insight.Any common believer who prophesies or predicts under the assumed inspiration of the same Spirit that all believers have in common,must eat a little humble pie and admit he or she was mistaken and prophesying out of their own spirit and clear God's name.To not do so causes confusion to the uninformed and novice and suggests strongly that we love our reputation more intently than we are concerned for God's reputation and work among His people.
I hope that good comes from all of this,but it has been in times past
that when ministers get to be big in their own eyes and in the eyes of
men, they seldom are able to swallow their pride and admit their accountability
to the body of Christ in general,and God Himself has to step-in and deal
with unrepentant big shots.The whole modern Pentecostal movement from the
early days till this present time is a living example of these things.I
have noticed the charismatics of my time didn't learn this lesson from
their predecessors in the healing/latter rain movement,and they didn't
learn their lesson from the early pioneers of the pentecostal movement.My
personal experience with the third wave people after the charismatics,has
been that they think they are so different from their predecessors that
they cannot succumb to error or excesses of the past.Yet, I have personally
witnessed the very opposite occuring in their midst,same old mistakes just
different faces and names associated I hope this modern movement can correct
itself and learn from the past,but so far it looks like they are on the
fast track to demise of their movement and the embarrassing ensnaring of
their key players.
YBIC James Lucas
Date sent: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:57:29 -0700
From: (suppressed for confidentiality)
To: "Harvest NETwork Webmaster List" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
(as often done, these e-mails edited for spelling errors/readability mistakes. The author of the letter included the page # and name of book, so anyone interested can doublecheck the quote, if they have the book. Of course, my answer was given on the assumption that the quote from the book was accurate.)
I read your rebuke addressing Rick Joyner's teachings. I have a question maybe you can help me with. In his book "Mobilizing the Army of God" I found a statement that left me a little uneasy. Although I am not as knowlegable of the bible as I would like to be, this quote from his book, still left me confused. And since God is not a God of confusion, I asked Rick Joyner to explain where he got his biblical reference from on this statement on Page 45, Chapter 3 which quotes:
The "good word of God" is the message of the kingdom. John the Baptist and the Lord Jesus preached this message. However, just as many of the most important doctrines of the faith were obscured after the first century A.D., the true gospel of the kingdom is yet to be recovered and preached by the last day church. This message is also represented in Revelation 11:15 as the seventh trumpet. etc....... and so on and so on.
My thought is I thought it was all there. Have you heard of missing gospels of the Bible? Your input would be greatly respected.
"Teri Lee Earl" <email@example.com>
To: (suppressed for confidentiality)
Date sent: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:10:37 -0400
Romans 16:25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel
and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the
mystery hidden for long ages past,
26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him--
27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
It is pretty clear by the above scriptures that the gospel was known and preached after Jesus's death and resurrection. There were no other mysteries about the gospel to be known (Romans 16:25, as above). It had been hidden in the O.T. writings but was "now revealed" by Jesus (Romans 1: 1-5 Also see Luke 2:21-32 as an example of this fact.)
Jesus Himself preached the gospel-- (See Matt. 4:17; Matt. 11:1; Mark 1:38 and Luke 20:1), and there are numerous examples of the apostles who stated they were preaching the gospel, as well as others were preaching the gospel (See Acts 8:40; 1 Thess. 3:2) as they fulfilled the "Great Commission" Jesus gave them (referring to Mark 16:15-18, but the apostles began earlier than that. (See Matt. 10:7 as example.)
Here is one of these that refer to the gospel the apostles preached:
1 Corinth. 15:1 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel
I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your
2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.
6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles,
8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
11 Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
You can see above that Paul had 'restated' the gospel in short form, because he was reminding his audience of what it was. Someone was obviously confusing the people by saying there was no resurrection of the dead, so he was telling them there was and the proof was Jesus was resurrected, which is part of the gospel.
Here is another one:
2 Corinth 4:1 Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this
ministry, we do not lose heart.
2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
You see in verse 2 Paul stated that "we" (referring to all the apostles or teachers with him) did not distort the word of God or use deception in the preaching of the Gospel. Since, as he said before, the mysteries of the past (O.T. writings prophesying Jesus) are now revealed, we don't need to worry that they missed the gospel. Otherwise, Jesus' own preaching, and death on the cross, and resurrection, would be of naught and we just wasted 1700 years not knowing the "real" gospel.
But the "real" gospel was already being theatened in the first century church. That is why Paul spent time restating the gospel when people had been confused. That is why he wrote this:
2 Corinth 11:4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus
other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit
from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted,
you put up with it easily enough.
5 But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles."
Galatians 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting
the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different
7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other
than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
In the first instance, there were some who claimed to be "super-apostles" and they were confusing the Corinth church. One of the signs of their false work was that they referred to or preached a different gospel.
In the second instance, the Galatians church was effectively opposed to the Gospel, since they were trying to get people to return to the Law which did not include the Cross or the work of the Cross.
It is clear from Scripture that the gospel-- all of the gospel-- was known and preached in the first century church. However, there were threats to the gospel in the first century church too, and these continue today. Because of this, the first century church was sternly and strongly instructed to not listen to anyone who preached a different gospel, and since they faced the same problems we do, it would be wise for us also to ignore any statements regarding a different gospel or even the revelation of a different gospel. There are no new revelations concerning the gospel, nor are there promises in scripture of any such thing. Jesus already gave it, preached it, and demonstrated it with his life, death (sacrifice on the Cross), and resurrection.
As for uncovering any lost documents, there are no indications that the "most important doctrines of the faith were obscured after the first century A.D," The gospel was stated very clearly in the documents we have, in the Bible we have today. To say anything less would be a statement that lacks faith, in my opinion. We would have to believe that God purposely allowed such a suppression of the 'true' gospel, and then sat back and laughed at us while we stumbled along without the gospel for the next 2,000 years. I would find such a suggestion totally contrary to all scripture about God's character, as well as contrary to the the over-all Plan of God as laid out in Scripture. He gave the Israelites the Law (Gal. 3:8), and then He gave all of us Jesus for the new covenant (2 Cor 3:4-6), Who IS the gospel as far as being the Way, Truth, and Life to all the world. (John 14:16)
There are the "Gnostic gospels" such as the gospel of Thomas and many other writings, which Joyner may be referring to as the important documents obscured. These documents were not included in the canon (what we have today) because they either did not contain enough worthwhile information or because they were obvious fairytales.
Here is a good website that presents the early writings (All of Early Christianity: The New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, and Church Fathers.)
Early Christian Writings
Be careful though, because gnosticism was considered a bane of early
Christianity (See: http://www.harvestnet.org/revref/gnosticheresy.html)
and it was primarily for this reason that the canon (the Bible) was
finalized! Marcion for instance, was considered extremely heretical. Not only did he suggest that the O.T. God was a different God than the N.T. God, but he literally penned through sections of scripture that did not suit him, and as if that wasn't enough, wrote his own!
You are correct in asking Rick Joyner what scriptural evidence there
is to support this thought that important writings were obscured and are
then to be brought forth to 'complete' the gospel at the seventh trumpet.
There are none. On the contrary, we are told to stand firm with "this
gospel" (the gospel Jesus preached) by Jesus Himself (Matt. 24:11-14. See
also Col. 1:10-23!!). In addition to that, there is in fact every evidence
the such a statement would be considered gnostic and heretical by the first
century church, and it was the first century church and prophets who spoke of the seventh trumpet in the first place!
At the very least, a statement without backing such as what you quoted from his book is irresponsible, elusive, and confusing, and that is the best thing I could say about it.
Blessings as you stand firm.
-Teri Lee Earl
From: "Brent" (e-mail address suppressed)
To: "Harvest NETwork Webmaster List" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Subject: [webmaster] prophecy
Date sent: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 22:41:07 -0400
I found it interesting that your entire site appeared to be a criticism
of Rick Joyner and any other American prophetic movement. Your whole website
downs any prophecy, which leads me to believe that maybe you don't agree
with prophecy at all. You claim to operate in the gift from what I understand,
but all of your teachings seem to again criticize modern prophets. Prophecy
is a vital area of the New Testament Church. Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 14:39,
that we should "be eager to prophesy". Also, I have attended Morningstar
Fellowship in Charlotte, NC. While there, I found that they were operating
in the gift according to scripture. I also recieved very accurate prophecies
from a few of their students. It was encouraging to seea church actually
trying to fulfill our calling. Just thought I'd drop this line to you,
and would appreciate a response if possible. I'm not holding anger towards
you, but it disheartens me to see such division in the Church.
I believe we should be trying to walk in love, not twisting each others words to get a good story. Thanks.
"Teri Lee Earl" <email@example.com>
Organization: Fellowshipping From Home!
To: "Brent" (address suppressed)
Date sent: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:09:27 -0400
Subject: Re: [webmaster] prophecy
I know you are probably not interested in my writings since you have been turned off by some of them, but I'd still like you to take advantage of anything that might be of interest to you, so please feel free to access "Prophet School" at:
I have not written much there yet, and it is free of charge.
As for your comments:
It is not true that my "whole website downs any prophecy," Actually, I get letters from people who are mad at me for putting prophecy up at all.
As for Joyner and Morningstar, show me one time I have twisted anyone's words. Listen to the tapes yourself. You accuse without specifics, while I quote pages and pages, link wherever available, and reproduce whole articles, in order to be sure I am not taking anything out of context. Indeed, I have double-checked and triple-checked myself, and have also footnoted and referenced extensively, and only dealt with what was public record, so anything can be doublechecked by others (some things may be more difficult to doublecheck now, since they were withdrawn by Morningstar after our links were put up), because I did not want to misrepresent! (and besides, I had hoped it wasn't that bad!)
I would have gladly been corrected by you, if you had any evidence for your charges of misrepresentation in my work, or even given any references or any specifics. My concern for you though is that you may be giving me one standard of proof, while you have no standard for yourself. I'm sure you did not intend to do that, but you have essentially already done it by providing no proof or specifics, while I provided many. So, an accusation of "twisting each others words to get a good story" cannot be answered, because it is unfounded. Not only am I unaware of anything that has been twisted, but I don't even have a MOTIVE for getting a good story, as I am not paid!
However, I certainly understand that you are blessed with prophecy being released in the church. Not enough people do it. I personally have suffered or witnessed others suffering, because of over-control and quenching of the gifts of the Spirit, including prophecy which seems to be the favorite to be despised by some (others that are commonly despised are deliverance from demons and healing of the sick). I would say I spent many years listening to the rationalizations given for over-control, and none of the activities that are the "fruit" of these rationalizations are justified in Scripture.
Those who over-control or discourage generally rationalize it by something bad happening to someone somewhere, and instead of bothering to correct or deal with anything that is "off," they shut it down. They stereotype and even verbally abuse those who prophesy, as well as shun and cast them out of their fellowships for no other reason than that they may have prophesied once!
Prophesying carries a cost, but being a prophet is something one should engage in with the fear of God in mind. Any Christian should be responsible for the manner in which they conduct themselves in their calling and in their Christian walk. If they are irresponsible and if they are flippant about their impact upon other Christians or the world, they have fallen and perhaps never were true in the first place. You just can't lend credence to something or honor something you believe in, while being irresponsible, elusive, and hidden.
I believe it is both unnecessary and unBiblical to teach people how to prophesy, to even 'command' people to prophecy on stage (as has been witnessed), to essentially charge for the gift as well as be perhaps financially unaccountable or aloof from the poor, to boast about prophetic prowess, and to treat prophecy as if it is the occult (complete with the language of the occult). If you can find some basis for these practices, or for for prophets or apostles or teachers or even any mature Christian standing by and watching it happen without objection, or for the practice of receiving no concern or questioning or correction without either silent treatments or public attacks (as was done to us and more specifically to Charisma magazine), so that prophecy should definitely be maligned and reduced to what is profane and without the mind of Christ (which the worldy DO notice), and for it AGAIN to be squelched in services like it was after the Latter Rain heresies, after AGAIN so many have been turned off by obvious carnality, and others are just plain scared of what happens when 'unaccountable prophets' run 'loose', and so use it as justification to over-control anything that even seems like prophecy, PLEASE show me this.
As has been made clear I believe in some of the FAQ explanations afterwards, I would not have even been involved, nor care to be involved, except by the Spirit. Indeed, I was more than reluctant to take this on, because I'd much rather be doing the very things that would coincidently please people like yourself. But I feel I would be disobedient to my Christian walk and the Lord, if I did not set myself apart from these practices, to reveal just a little bit of what is going on, to warn, and to be misunderstood or criticized by people like yourself. I trust though from your letter that you are not being purposeful about it, and likewise bear no ill-will to you.
I will be posting your mail and my answer because it is from someone who has been to Morningstar like myself, and one of the few thus far who has something nice to say about it, in regards to what they deem as scriptural practices for prophecy. The URL will be http://www.harvestnet.org/Mailtoauthor.htm.
And then I'll take a rest, and eventually get to the things you'd probably rather be reading about. It's time to leave it all to God and I believe I've answered enough questions about it, promptly enough.
Teri Lee Earl
Note: This letter below highly snipped below with XXX's over names for obvious reasons. This person was answered by myself.
(suppressed for confidentiality)
Date sent: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:52:47 EST
Subject: [webmaster] Thank you for speaking up
To: "Harvest NETwork Webmaster List" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Hello, I want to thank you for speaking up about these things on Morningstar.
I was a part of XXX's "personal prophetic council" when I believethis rebuke
to have taken place....
...I know that XXX, XXX, and XXX have callings on their lives, but I am very concerned to the destruction of lives and relationships I have witnessed...
I guess I say all that to ask this besides prayer alone how can I help to ensure that more people don't get derailed as I did? Any response would be greatly appreciated.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Yours in Christ
(suppressed for confidentiality)
THREATS(OR CURSES) AND WARNINGS
As I indicated earlier, some of those who adamently support Joyner included subtle 'threats' in their e-mails, couched in prophetic or bible speak. One person, a die-hard fan of Joyner et all and some one who prophesies, referenced 2 Kings 1 & 2:23,24. He later denied that he was implying a curse or threat. My (prophetic and teacher) friends who reviewed the mail disagreed. I had already blessed him in return as that is what the Spirit led me to do, and it is found in Scripture to do so (Rom.12:14), and we parted peaceably.
One person, apparently incensed that I had the audacity to reveal Rick Joyner's and Bob Jones public quotes and the inception of this 'roundtable' development, sent me a 'prophecy' from the 'prophetic roundtable' (they had recently put up their own website) She did not have the courage to speak to me directly, yet felt free to send me such a 'prophecy'.
I will reproduce this 'prophecy' below, so that all will know I've seen it. Instead of focusing on the generalized implications in this prophecy, or the ridiculous implications the sender may have implied by sending it to me (let the reader discern), please read it for scriptural veracity. We all need to be on the alert for prophecies that are anti-Scriptural, anyway. Some 'prophecies' are more blatantly anti-Scriptural than this one below, and so are more easily discerned as being totally false, or 'mixed' with another spirit. My personal preference has been to chuck any prophecy that does not stand up to the Word, since it is either adulterated or completely false. What's the difference? NOT MUCH.
Below is the 'prophecy' that was sent to me. I will highlight
the portion that is unScriptural. The reader will have to do their own
Bible study if they do not agree. Below that one, will is another prophecy/vision,
and then yet another portion of another prophecy. You decide.
Submitted by: Don Franklin
Prophetic Roundtable Online -
The prophecy I have to share is kind of harsh. But I would like to temper it by sharing a little story of what went on between my kids and myself today. This is on their level, but I think you will get the point
I was driving today in the rain with my children to go and pick out Father's Day presents for their father, and they were not being little angels. They were arguing over who was the smartest. Both of my two oldest got all "A's" this last marking period, and so I overheard my son telling my daughter, "Yes, but you didn't get all A's in third grade but I did!" Which of course got her all mad and upset back at him. They were screaming back and forth over who was the smartest!
I told them both to quit. "First of all," I said, "The Bible says you are not supposed to compare yourself to others, because you are always going to find someone smarter than you, or someone who is dumber than you. Even Jesus' disciples argued over who were going to sit in the closest thrones next to him, and that didn't make Jesus very happy. He didn't want them to argue and fight. He wanted them to love each other. That is what is the most important. Who is the most loving, not who's the smartest. Who is showing more love is what counts, and right now neither one of you were showing much love at all."
My youngest piped up, "What does it mean to compare yourself to others?"
I told them, "Well, that's when you look around and you see others are smarter than you in math, or better than you in one sport, or whatever and then you feel bad. Or when you start telling everyone how good you are in math or how great you are in one sport and then that makes the other kids feel bad. God doesn't want us to compare; He loves each one of us the way we are."
My nine-year-old still wasn't convinced, so I had to put him in his place. I said, "Right now there are thousands of children your age who are in college; they are taking college classes because God made their brains so smart they are geniuses! But then there are other children who are not as smart as you are; they are not even working on the same grade level, but that doesn't matter. God loves them all." Donnie said, "Like Forrest Gump?" I said, "Yes, and remember even though he wasn't the smartest in class he was the best one at Ping-Pong. But he didn't make anyone feel bad. God doesn't want you to make anyone feel bad either." So they all apologized.
The following prophecy is from God about fighting among our brothers and sisters. It's a warning and I warn you, it's on a "Mom and Daddy level". God didn't pull any punches when He gave this one
Do not Touch your Brother's Call!
I have a word for the Body of Christ. I have a warning. There was much infighting among the early disciples as to who would be the greatest in my kingdom, and who would sit at my right hand and my left, and who would do this and who would do that.
Do not touch your brother's or your sister's call in God. Leave them alone. Do not try to take positions that do not belong to you. I have assigned each and every child I place in the Body of Christ. I have assigned; I have ordained leadership in the Body of Christ.
Do not attempt to move into a position that I do not promote you to. Great will be your harm, great will be your downfall, and great will be the rubbing of your backside as you take your licking from God!
Do not attempt to touch a brother or sister's position. And if they need correction, I myself will come and remove them; I myself will come and correct them; you do not need to do it.
Leave those around you alone! And if I am bringing somebody from a far country to sit in your midst and even take your place, what is that to you? Am I not the Lord of the Body of Christ? Do I not determine who ministers when, where, and how and under what circumstances? And don't I hand out the discipline, or have you yourself become God the Father to the Body?
Are you now in charge? Do you now determine how many licks each one gets? And when they're brought in and when they're put out, and when they're raised up and when they're lowered down?
You better be careful. I care not who you think you are, or how big you think you are, or what your name is. I have a Name that is above all names and I will not tolerate interference among my children.
Do not lift a hand against anyone. Do not move against their ministry. Do not spread tales about them behind their back. For I in turn will judge you and remove you quicker than you can blink an eye and you won't even know what hit you! And if you don't believe me you look around in the Body of Christ and see where did he go? Where did he go? Who is he anymore?
I will handle all of the internal problems in the Body. And I will see to it that no one gets away with anything. Don't worry about people when they're not walking right. I have it all under control.
Allow Me to do it. Allow me to discipline. Allow me to place them in place and to take them out. Because if you move without my hand upon you, then you're next!
~ A prophecy received by
Don Franklin ~
Prophetic Roundtable Online -
Posted on the bottom of this e-mail:
Were you edified or instructed by this word? Please forward it to a pastor, relative, or friend so they can be encouraged as well--Steve Shultz, THE ELIJAH LIST
To Subscribe to the Elijah List, send a blank email
1 Cor 14:29 --"Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said." Please weigh carefully each word.
Amos 3:8 The lion has roared-- who will not fear? The
Sovereign LORD has spoken-- who can but prophesy?
Steve Shultz, Publisher,
THE ELIJAH LIST
Subject: The vision of a Trojan Horse
Date sent: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:16:44 -0500
I had for a few weeks been deeply troubled and searching for answers about some ministers who are going around the body of Christ here (in the States ) and abroad, organizing conferences, writing articles, etc., all in the name of God.
Having known these men for some time, I know for a fact that unfortunately their hearts and minds are far removed from God's purposes. Yet, they are still well received in Christian circles and their teachings/prophecies embraced by many Christians.
While in prayer about it, asking the Lord how He views these men and why he allows them to still go around unchecked, he gave me the following vision:
I saw a big, wooden horse and the Lord made me understand that it was the " Trojan Horse" of the Greek mythology. And that these men, in His eyes, are like this horse.
They have been received in Christian circles as God's Gifts. But in fact, the enemy is hidden, inside of them, ready to cause harm and destruction.
You see, as per Greek mythology (or actual history according to some), Greece tried unsuccessfully for ten years to overcome the city of Troy, which was heavily fortified. Finally, they decided to trick the trojans by giving them an " offering of peace", a wooden statue of a horse.
As this familiar story goes, the trojans accepted it, bringing it into their city. That night, as they were celebrating, the enemy (hidden in the hollow statue ) comes out of the belly of the horse and conquers the city.
Likewise, we have accepted these men as " offerings of peace"
We marvel at their gifts and talents and their soothing words. However, they are empty inside, they have no true godly substance,being full of the enemy, with his devious and deceitful teachings and doctrines.
We, like the Trojans, dance and worship around them, celebrating, while little by little, their poison spreads among us.
I feel that the Lord showed me in this sense that He lets the Trojan horses to go unchecked because we ,as His body, have not learned how to check these gifts ourselves. We are impressed so much with their gifts and talents that we let them come unchecked.
Had the Trojans checked the gift thoroughly they would have found out about the enemy. Therefore, we must learn to go beyond the appearances, asking the Lord to give us a deeper understanding about the gift of spiritual discernment and the courage to use it properly in order to identify and unmask these trojan horses among us.
'PROPHETIC/REVIVAL' Discussion List:-
Lemos is aware this prophecy is up on our site here on this page in connection
with our Trouble
in Prophet Land report, and did express his appreciation for
that fact at the time.
...For the church of America I saw the Lord take off his belt of truth and discipline the area known as the "Bible belt". There will be a shaking that will take place there. Truth will reveal, hidden things will come to light, sin will be exposed in leadership, and God will be feared. The church will rise in greater purity...
The copyright for this was posted as, Sunday, January 30, 2000. See our Rick Joyner In Charisma page for what may be an obvious "real life" followup to this a few months later .
It became clear to us that some missed the fact that "Trouble in Prophet Land" was a factual reporter-style article and was only an ancillary article to the main one, which is commonly known as the 'Open Rebuke' to Joyner and Morningstar, (Prophetic Mandate-- Levels Of Integrity, Truthfulness, and Responsibility, linked above). They did not understand that the reports of Joyner possibly joining a knights organization of some kind was not our main expressed concern. We take responsibility for this confusion as we realize that many Christians were caught up in that controversy and were focused on that alone, and we may not have done enough to make our position or actions clear enough in the way we structured our web pages in the very beginning.
We also noticed a persistent misconception regarding this event with Joyner and the Matt. 18 process, as if what we were reporting or rebuking in a vacuum. Of course, it is highly debatable as to how much Matt. 18 even applies to this case -- (for one thing, this is hardly about what Joyner did to US, personally. For another, there are NUMEROUS other scriptures showing that it is certainly more than okay to challenge public people with what is wrong in a public manner) However, just for your information, we had already prayed about it at length for over 9 months, as we watched developments continue and received the leading of the Lord on how to proceed-- which included not only if, but when, and even what to be mentally prepare for (there would be no answer). All main documents had been sent more than once and by more than one means, to the proper addresses, directly to Morningstar. Yet since this was detailed at the end of the document, some people may not have easily known that.
Also, because people in general were probably not following this as closely as we had, they may not have noticed that prior to our involvement there was ample public proof that all of these concerns had previously been brought to Joyner's attention by many others. Not only that, but he had already made some defenses or explanations. In fact, at the time of the rebuke, we weren't exactly out of bounds for Joyner's OWN TEACHING. So to clear things up:
1) Joyner himself taught it was okay to publicly challenge, as if this was desireable when it came to Church-wide concerns (see the beginning of our rebuke).
2) It was clear that Joyner had already been challenged in regards to his knighting, which may have begun either before or after he was quoted in an audio tape by a pastor (Joe Chambers) of Paw Creek Ministries in Charlotte, North Carolina, as saying he had been knighted by "these Knights of Malta," and as saying they had made him, "a knight commander which gave me authority to knight others and then they made me something else, where I have authority over all the knights supposedly in the U.S. . . ." Also, Joyner had already begun to make vague statements of defense as early as April 1998. Later, he published his short book Courage That Changed The World. All of this was prior to our publications.
3) As would be clear in the Rebuke from Joyner's words himself, Joyner had already gotten a lot of mail from confused or upset people regarding the main prophecy this Open Rebuke was about, and IN FACT-- Our Rebuke took him to task in large part for HIS ANSWER to these letters. (Unfortunately, some read the rebuke and thought it is was all about a false prophecy) Furthermore, according to our private reports, Joyner had already been confronted on the main issues covered in our publications by others, and most of them had gotten the silent treatment. Of the few times he had responded, the people receiving those responses were very concerned as to his words. Of course, we did not have permission to reproduce all of that any more than Charisma magazine had liberty to produce confidential reports in their magazine. As they also said (and were later forced to repeat), it was indeed often a matter of various fears of reprisals for these people, in regards to openly speaking of what was going on "on the inside," or privately. These concerns and fears were said to us, too. The only difference between what people said to us and what they said to Charisma, was that not all reports had been from previous Morningstar people at all, though some were from Charlotte or the area. Furthermore, some clearly liked Joyner or Jones and were on a friendly basis with them, and this was clear in their contact with us. They did not want the hate mail of the likes that we got, were concern for their public ministries, and were concerned over unfounded misunderstandings against them in regards to their motives, publicly or privately. None of this would be necessary to reveal if Joyner's fans did not act as though Joyner was the victim here and everyone was being ungracious and rude to him because after all, he had no clue as to how upset people were before something was said. Our evidence from all sources including Joyner himself, was that nothing was being sprung on him that he did not have ample time to address-- appropriately.
Prophets and Prophecy
It became clear to us that the ethical standards and mode of operation between ministries like Morningstar and other prophet ministers out there, are worlds apart.
As for the prophetic, I do not and will not make a list of prophecies or how many times I have been right, or words of wisdom and how many times I have been right. I will not wear this as a badge, yet I will admit when I am wrong or unknowledgable, no matter what the subject. I do not publicly list all visions or revelations or dreams I have had or do have, nor do I assume they are all for everyone to know. I believe to do so as a matter of habit, or in order to prove a standard of acceptability to others, would be both self-promoting and self-serving. Even acting as though one should expect a constant stream of the prophetic from me or anyone else would, in my opinion, be presumptious of God's will, since it is the Holy Spirit and not ourselves who controls the gifts, and this includes the frequency of them. I would advise anyone to consider well the Apostle Paul's decision when it comes to spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 13) as well abundant or dramatic revelations (2 Cor. 12). As you can probably tell, I disagree with many of the present-day teachings on prophecy or prophets, and especially charging for what only God Himself gives. For a better reflection of what I regard as good teaching for prophets, go to Prophet School on this site.
On using threats and baseless accusations on behalf of your Favorite Prophet:
In the beginning, the letters to us about Trouble in Prophet Land especially, were most often very ungracious. Most of these were obviously from Joyner fans. One unnamed person simply sent a prophecy as an implied threat from God. These threats and what I call, "Christianized curses" did occur a few times. All negative letters were accusatory as to my motives. These letters did not quote our article(s) or complain about a specific portion. They did not ask me any questions. I found that if I reassured them of my motives, (while remaining as gracious as possible), they remain unsatisfied. They failed to discuss Scripture with me, even if I attempted to engage them in such a discussion. They continued to become more and more aggressive.
I noticed these protestors would generally end up quoting some catch-phrases --phrases whose roots obviously went way back to the old Shepherding Movement. By this it became clear that the underlying basis for their questioning (or should I say, 'interrogation', in some cases) was rooted in beliefs that were set up by various false teachings that have been inflicted upon the Body of the Christ for over 20 years. Being very familiar with these teachings, I then compiled teachings that would answer these false teachings. I placed these on our Truth page in order to address Scripture if anyone ever cared to, which they did not at the time.
Eventually, I posted a public request for scriptural discussion and asked people to accuse me only with quotes and specifics. Once I did this, baseless letters by and large disappeared off the face of the earth. I found this very interesting. In the mean time, I was also getting more supportive letters.
Later on, I found that a friend of mine had a similar problem with receiving these types of letters. Not everyone was like this, as some could disagree with him appropriately and there were good discussions. For those who were like this, though, he shared some of his letters with me as he tried a wide variety of approaches. Eventually, he also wearied of the hostile, baseless, approach and published an excellent response to what I might call a "projection letter" (i.e., when someone accuses for what they themselves are doing), from a "positive only" adherent. By "positive only," I mean those who believe that nothing "negative" should be said in the Body of Christ--except of course when they themselves say it. Then it is 'okay' to say. (Please read why I believe "positive only" is a deception under a subheading of a larger work of mine.)
There may be no other way to deal with these Christians than to "tough love" it, as my friend did in this example (Jesus models this when he rebuked people for going on splinter hunts while they were blinded by logs in their eye). The good news is that this "tough love" response worked for the good in that instance, since the brother who received it acknowledged his lack and humbly spoke of his need to grow in the knowledge of Christ. This was the first and only expression of unguarded humility I had ever witnessed when it came to these types of letters.
On How We Came to Participate in this Open Rebuke:
I was led by the Spirit to take this on, but was certainly reluctant to do so. I had to count the cost. The process was difficult, it was time-consuming, and it was personally grievous for me in a variety of ways -- especially because it was all so sad and distressing. However, after much prayer and as an answer to prayer, people spontaneously began to send us information. People who had no idea of our interest, nor even knew we were praying. The Lord called me to start writing so I wrote a rough draft which mostly included the information. Then, I waited longer because the Lord said to, and after many months there was a final development that was apparently what we were waiting for. This final development was Joyner's Round Table public release regarding the tape we quoted from in the Rebuke, when he dismissed the trouble Jones's prophecy caused by saying it was a misunderstanding on the part of the people, while at the same time encouraging everyone to check back for more future-focused prophecies from them. We were led then to make one part an ancillary article (Trouble in Prophet Land) because although that seemed to be what the uproar was all about (Joyner and the Knights of Malta), we felt that it should not the 'core' issue, which was basically honesty and prophetic responsibility.
When the final draft was finished I contacted the European Prophetic College, who had been aware of the information that kept coming to us after we were asked by them to pray about the developments at MS. Prayer was really what started the whole thing, as I testified to at the beginning of the Trouble in Prophet Land article. We were led by a dream from the Lord to ask them to go in on it with us, because we alone would be easily discounted by Joyner since we were 'nobodies'. We knew from the Lord it should come reasonably close to a modern equivalent of the Paul of Antioch incident-- a company of prophets and teachers to challenge those who were 'greater' (like the Apostle Peter, who was actually with the Lord Jesus during his life and so Paul was comparatively, a 'nobody'). This was not contrary to Joyner's statements about humility and making mistakes and using Antioch as a model of the 'outsider' or the 'lesser' coming to rebuke. Of course, a closed system would never actually accept such a rebuke as valid, nor recognize the 'nobodies' as legitimate messengers of God.
Not everyone should be expected to be the object
of abuse from the fans of certain ministers, and it is right for us who
may be called to take on a difficult task to shield others from it. These
public ministers have broad power as far as communication ability and forums,
and they and their followers are often the ones who complain the loudest.
They often point out other's supposed hostility and evil motives of heart
while they engaged in their own blatantly hostile actions or words.
That is to be expected, but we have the complication of a religious public
who is largely uneducated when it comes to dealing with such matters. This
is why even other ministers are afraid to touch the boiling pot, as was
in this case too up until Charisma magazine decided to do a report.
And if you read their "God's Lightning
Rod" article in their April, 2001, edition of Charisma magazine,
the same one that so incensed
Joyner, you will see that they are almost bending
over backwards for him in it, and are being more than fair. As for us,
we realized God's wisdom to use us in this matter, since we are not paid
ministers, were unknowns, and were Spirit-filled, prophetic, Christians.
We are not complaining over what happened as a result of our obedience
to God, nor do we think it is that unusual. Instead, we found it all very
instructive and a learning experience for us, too--included in that is
how we too can remain responsible for what do to avert easy misunderstandings.
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